Robot

Are you following him

nice

The most important part is "the result image must be significantly different to the start image". You only inpainted the surrounding frame. The robot hasn't been reinterpreted by NC; if it had been, then that would've been ok. That's how starting images can be used.

The theme was Robot Characters, so obviously the robot part of your image should've been altered with 30% or higher Noise Weight.

Also, this is an NC challenge, so why would unaltered outside images be allowed to compete? Otherwise, I can submit any high quality image I can find or create that would be impossible for NC to create and have an unfair advantage.

This Noise Weight is for the inpainting, but you only masked around the robot, so the 100% only applied to that area. The robot was not altered at all. This is why the surroundings change drastically in your 4 images.

Well, the difference is if you evolved an image from Midjourney in Stable on at least 30% Noise Weight. This is just a straight up MJ image with small differences to the background. It shouldn’t be allowed in challenges because it’s an unfair advantage. It only slips through the detection system (from what I know) when certain settings are used.

It is allowed as there's no mention of it in the separate by necessity rule 2, rule and 2 can't exist together and must be separate, why would I need permission from myself for my own work. They are separate because they have to be because they contradict each other. The easy solution would be to delete one or the other, but you can't ban and allow works that don't belong to you.

Where did you learn that? Not saying you're wrong. How would others come to the same conclusion?

Thanks. You’re right, I or anyone could go check that right now. Do you have the link though?

No it doesn't, it states that start images must be different from the original imported image, it states that if you don't own the image you need the owners permission, they implemented their own detection system to ensure it's altered enough, if it's not it won't let you enter it, if they insisted on using purely NightCafè images importing them wouldn't be available as an option. Also needing permission from the owner of you don't own it also implies you can use from other sources as long as you have permission to use it.

It's not against the rules and it was wasn't a style transfer either so idk where that screenshot came from because it's not mine

It's literally no different than grabbing an image from Google to use to start, but I am curious as to why my privacy is being invaded by spreading a screenshot of my page on a different platform, that has to be against their own policy. What's the point of having the option of they're going to spread screenshots on their own, wonder what actions can be taken considering they're breaking their own privacy system

Check, not spread

It's not, read it again and then figure out the loopholes

Are you a mod? If not why are they sharing a private page to any non-mod? That's a gross violation of my privacy.

No no no, why is the mood showing non mods, that is a violation of my privacy, the privacy they themselves implemented into the site. This does not look good for them. Spreading private information outside of this site while implying privacy can't be legal.

That's not the point, they done goofed. There's a reasonable expectation to privacy on a private page with private information they themselves deem sensitive enough to create a privacy function for. To take said private information to an entirely different platform and share said information with people who don't have the permission to see it is a HUGE issue.

"Entries must be your own work".

"If a start image is used, you must have permission to use it (i.e. it's yours, or it's licensed under public domain or creative commons) and the result image must be significantly different to the start image" -- negates it

They contradict themselves in the very next line. Why would I need permission from myself? I don't, therefore it doesn't have to be your own work, where would I get work that doesn't belong to me that would need licensing? Not here

How would I need licensing or permission for a work created here? If it was created here I wouldn't need to give myself permission to use it. House many entries do you think start from scratch? How many generations do you have to evolve a Google image starter before it's yours? Words and their arrangements matter, intent is irrelevant.

How many*

The & created on NightCafè is tied to the you're own work part, now here comes the but, the next section is separate from the first as it directly contracts itself, must be yours, but if it's not yours you need permission. This is a completely different rule set that doesn't state it must be created on NightCafè because where would you get the starry image from to begin with that would necessary permissions stated in their post. Why would there even be the option of importing an image from outside of the site?

Who determines which part of the painting is good enough and which part isn't? Why does their own system accept it as being alters enough?

But it doesn't, it only started that for the first rule which days it must be yours own work. You can't say it must be your own work but if it's not you need permission. Those are separate rule sets. Otherwise it works be saying rule one don't do this. Rule 2 don't listen to rule 1. It has to be separate rules for separate creation types and the second stand alone time doesn't say it had to be made on NightCafè because where would you get there starry image needed for the desired output otherwise

Still, you can’t submit MJ images.

It has to be altered enough or it won't, it's not slipping through, it literally doesn't accept it until you change it enough to script it

Accept*. Sorry I use swipe and it's hit and miss

I can because logically it's not against the rules. Follow the flow. Rule 2 can't exist with rule 1, they necessitate being separate.

I use 100% noise

Why is that obvious? It states the image must be subjectively different from the start image.

Unaltered images aren't allowed and for the second part, if everyone can do it then it's not an advantage. You can get 25 free images on midjourney for every email you have.

Don't misinterpret intention, I used a logical loophole that allowed many users to use outside images. Getting the rules changed to not allow is not the negative so many people assume. It'll make placing higher using NightCafè creations easier, not harder. I didn't like losing to midjourney images either, but when everyone uses steroids you must too just to stay competitive.

I'm pretty sure this guy is getting comission from midjourney for mentioning them in every comment.

It doesn't, they're wrong

Submissions not using a start image, start image needs permission from owner or license if not your own. That's literally dating you can use outside works

Stating*

It doesn't say that.

I don’t use Midjourney.

You seem to know every little thing about it despite that

I have tried Midjourney. But after you use the free trial, it costs money. And I haven’t paid for it.

They used a start image created in a more simplified and advanced AI model called Midjourney. They used the in-painting tool of NightCafe to mask around the frame of the subject, which is the robot. However the start image is not from NightCafe. The robot has not been altered at all either. Only the surrounding frame.

Don’t mind me, I only wanted to help answer your question. 🙌

Advertising another service as easier and better probably isn't the best way to respond here.

That’s not what I’m doing. But with the new challenge rules it won’t be possible to enter any outside images, so good luck trying to use Midjourney images, as all submissions will have to be created inside of NightCafe to be eligible to submit.

All I’m saying is just that it’s from Midjourney because it is. And you’ve been saying that it’s allowed to be used in challenges, which it is not. The new rules will not make outside images allowed.

Never assume you know a person's motives without first discussing it with them. Not everyone has the same line of thought. Notice how in it first discussion I repeatedly pointed out the loophole? That should have been a tip, people who want to keep things unchanged won't do things to draw attention to it.

It is still until the 20th, more I've repeatedly explained why in detail so they could correct it which they have.

All I said is this: "And you’ve been saying that it’s allowed to be used in challenges, which it is not." because that’s the truth. If you look above, you’ll see that you’ve been saying MJ images are allowed and that it dosen’t say in the rules that it’s not. I’m not assuming anyone’s intention. You’ve been saying it yourself.

This is from NightCafe themselves:

"First, we want to explain why we're making these changes. One of our main goals with challenges is to make them fair. What we've found is that quite often, the creations that do best in challenges use a start image that wasn't created on NightCafe. A few months ago, we introduced some automated checks to ensure that submitted images are significantly different to start images. Those changes helped for a while, but we're still finding that a lot of highly-rated challenge entries used a start image that doesn't look all that different to the submitted image."

On this blog post: https://nightcafe.studio/blogs/blog/daily-challenge-rules-update ↗️

It should explain exactly why your image should not have qualified in the challenge, and why Midjourney images, and really, any outside images have not been and are not allowed in challenges.

Your image violates what it says there.

You're still focused on what they WANTED the rules to exclude but FAILED to explicitly state. It doesn't matter what someone means, it only matters what they say. As I've already shown the most be your own work & made on NightCafè contradict the second rule stating if it's a start image that's not your work you must have permission to use it. Those two rules can't coincide, therefore there's an argument that they must be separate rules used for different submission types and since the 2nd doesn't state no outside images it's not forbidden. It's a loophole that needs to be closed. In summary it doesn't matter what you want, only what you say and if what you say can get twisted in a way you don't like due to lack of description of what you're wanting then you need to make it more explicit. Speaking of explicit, how about that g or pg rating requirement for entries? There are g and pg movie with nudity. You can see from frontal in several pg movies.

If I didn't have a valid argument they would have just removed the image, and they link says exactly what I was saying about so many people using outside images. We're on the same side here, you just haven't realized it yet.

A lot of images have been removed, and you don’t know the reason to why they didn’t remove this one. But I know that the reason is NOT because it’s allowed, because it’s not allowed.

My whole point is just that you still entered an outside image, regardless of it violating the old and new rules. And you probably know that by now. But with the new rules, that obviously won’t be a problem because it’s gotten to the point where there have been too many outside images used in challenges, that these rules were needed. I won’t even focus on it. I’m glad these rules are in place.

It is allowed. Are you even reading what i'm saying.

Rule 1: must be your own work. Rule 2: if it's not your own work you must have permission to use it.

Do you not understand how those two rules can't coexist? Rule 2 contradicts the "must be your own work" that rule 1 states. This must mean they're in two totally different rule sets. Seeing as rule 1 is the only one that mentions that it must be made on NightCafè and that logically they are 2 separate rule sets, seeing as they contradict each other, then it's not required to be created on NightCafè for rule 2. I didn't like seeing dozens of midjourney images either, this update to the rules makes it easier to place highest using NightCafè.

It's a logical loophole. People are not mind-readers, you can't minimally explain what you want and expect everyone to assume what you're wanting.

Who are you to decide what is significant since that's a subjective opinion, not objective, when their own system accepted it?

You're barking at the wrong person if you don't like it. I followed the rules as STATED, maybe not by what they meant, but by what they stated. I also was accepted by their own detection system. Yet you accuse me of cheating. If you don't like something maybe try making an image and winning to draw attention to it. You're still not getting the fact we're both on the same side here. The more explicitly stated rules are wanted.

Come on. The robot is exactly the same as the start image. That clearly means that it is NOT significantly different. Only the background changes in your four images here.

You’re only focusing on those exact two rules. Instead of actually realising and focusing on the focal point of this whole discussion which is that your image is NOT different in terms of the subject robot being exactly the same as the start image. And with the challenge being a robot challenge, the robot should have been VERY different to the Midjourney start image which is not created on NightCafe, therefore violating one of the most important rules. The robot is NOT different and it’s the same as the start image.

That exact detection system has failed multiple times at detecting images that use the in-painting tool. That’s why NightCafe said this: "A few months ago, we introduced some automated checks to ensure that submitted images are significantly different to start images. Those changes helped for a while, but we're still finding that a lot of highly-rated challenge entries used a start image that doesn't look all that different to the submitted image."

in relation to the fact that images have to be VERY different in order to qualify.

In your case. It’s simply not.

The robot had been altered from the start image and I can prove it. The point is you can't use subjective terms and expect objective outcomes

https://cdn.midjourney.com/eb952708-5836-46f3-9052-7aa40703355d/grid_0.png ↗️

It is changed, who is to decide using their subjective opinion on if it's significant enough? NightCafè that's who and since their detection system have it a go ahead then it's not up to you to decide differently

That robot has not been altered and you did not prove anything with this link. Sorry. The frame and background around it DID change. But NOT the centre point subject of it, which is the robot.

There is NO change to the robot at all. That’s why it’s NOT significantly different. The minor details are barely noticeable. You can’t look at both images and say that it’s not the same.

Reexamine those images, it did alter it, just not much. Unfortunately when you use subject terms like significant or very there's no opinion that matters since they're all subjective opinions. What you call insignificant someone else may find very significant. Again if you have a problem with it, take it up with them. Demand non-subjective rules, roles that everyone knows what is expected and doesn't have to guess.

Look at the tips of the fingers for one, arms are more blurry. This is not me claiming anything about the significance of it, but someone could claim it's significant enough for them. It's all subjective.

The minor details that don't exist? You just said there's no change. Which is it? Your opinion is that it's not significant, but you're not the authority on what is or isn't significant.

You only further prove my point.

That's not subjective, there is a facial difference on the fingers and arms minimum, I did look at them dude by side it's how I know there's a difference. You're fact is wrong. Demonstrably wrong.

Factual not facial

I want the change to the rules, subjective rules are exploitable.

C'mon, I’ve looked at these. There’s not a difference at all. Not even subjective. Anyone who looks at these can tell that it’s not different. The background is slightly different, but it’s not a "Background of robot" challenge. It’s a robot challenge. Therefore, using a robot start image not created on NightCafe as well as not altering the main subject is against the rules that you violated.

/jobs/NoZNcKKz9bSSei9WeAAC/NoZNcKKz9bSSei9WeAAC--1--otlnl.jpg?tr=w-1600,c-at_max

Your argument falls apart so easily.

There's more changes than I thought, I'll do it at a higher trees shortly or you can compare the circles on the link earlier

Have you ever thought about those tiny little details not being noticed for voters? That’s the point. It’s not different. Even if you look at it with a microscope lol. It’s not different apart from those tiny little pixels.

Or maybe just don’t try to argue with something that easily falls apart just by looking at it. It would be great if it got created on NightCafe. But it didn’t. 👋

What are you not getting? I don't know what more I can say to get the point across that I'm helping them close loopholes. If there's an exploit or loophole that allowed others to have an unfair advantage it needs to be closed. As for what it says on the blog, that's irrelevant just like eula's, there's no reasonable expectation for people to read it. No one reads the eula, they just click accept. No one goes and hunts down a blog when the rules are right there in your face when you enter the challenge. They could require an Eskimo to be hidden in every challenge entry for every challenge, but if it's not stated where the rules are defined at the entry way then it doesn't matter as there's no reasonable expectation for anyone to find it.

I can easily see the difference, and what does it matter if the voters can see it since they don't ever see the start image? The voters don't matter at all on that point. Maybe you just need glasses?

You are admitting to violations.

It didn't have to be as I've repeatedly pointed out. I don't like it, you don't like, they don't like, but it is what it is. Now I've pointed out how to fix it, they have starting on the 20th, so things got accomplished. You can thank me if you ever get it.

Because you DONT want to see that it’s NOT different

Why? Why don't I? I've repeatedly stated I want the change. I've repeatedly pointed out the loopholes. I've spoon fed all this to you and you still think we're on opposing sides. I DON'T LIKE PEOPLE USING MIDJOURNEY IMAGES EITHER, now they won't be able too. Due to poorly worded rules they could loophole into it, now they can't. It's a win for me.

It’s a NightCafe challenge. It’s not a Midjourney challenge.

Also, there’s no "hinting down a blogpost" going on. It’s on the NightCafe Lounge server, if you even care to look at facts. Lol.

Unfortunately as it is according to the entry rules at the submission point, it's not a violation.

No need to thank you when you are one the reasons that unfair wins have happened and you have not helped them with anything.

So why would you contribute to the whole amount of people using outside images in NIGHTCAFE challenges that are not allowed, and then repeatedly lying trough the face of facts?!

Are you a bot? What are you not understanding? It's unreasonable to expect people to find things out of the way of their purpose for being here. I'm here to make art, not read blogs. This isn't my first time going over this, I read everything from the challenge rules, community standards, privacy policy, about NightCafè, faqs and the more about challenge in regards to style transfer entries before they ever even made the first change and when asked where it was stated they couldn't be used I got no response. That's because there was nowhere that banned them from entry.

Think of it like ethical hacking, hackers find flaws and report them to get fixed.

Well. You’ve already admitted to using the start image with no change from Midjourney, so there’s that. 👋 I have no reason to argue in a discussion with someone that violates rules and then says it’s ok.

Except you "hacked" your way into a NightCafe only challenge with a Midjourney start image that would be impossible for NightCafe to make.

I am not lying you're just wrong and not understanding anything in saying. Why use steroids to stay competitive in sports? What better way to make change than by by drawing attention to a problem? You have no clue what interactions I've had with them throughout my time here, you have no clue what trains they used when deciding the changes that have been made. You really think me outlining the exact problems in the very chat of the image you yourself said they were discussing elsewhere had no impact on the new rules that fix the very issue I was saying? That would be one heck of a coincidence.

What rule? I've explained to you in the simplest way I know how that it didn't.

Except it wasn't NightCafè only as I've repeatedly explained.

Look it's as simple as this

Rule 1: must be your own work

Rule 2: if it's not your own work you must have permission from the owner to use it

Can those two rules exist together?

Idk how trains got inserted

I did not admit that you're just not capable of understanding apparently. There is change, the fact it's not enough for you doesn't matter as your opinion on it is irrelevant.

The rule that start images need to be significantly different to the result image, when your image has an identical robot.

Yes it is.

Not according to the listed rules at submission point

I have not lied once and won't tolerate being called a list. Just because you're not capable of understanding logic doesn't make me wrong.

Get glasses, they are not identical.

A liar*

You don't decide what is significant, their detection system does. If you have issue with their system you take it up with them. Your opinion on it doesn't matter.

You did admit to that. Haven’t you also linked stuff that goes against yourself?

The listed rules do not allowed outside images to be used anywhere in challenge submissions.

They are.

I'm too fixated on the rules? You really just said that? The only thing that matters when deciding if someone broke the rules are the rules. It is not identical and you're s liar for claiming they are when you've already stated there are differences. You're wrong and a liar. Again you don't get to decide what is significant, you're not the authority and your opinion matters to no one. Outside images are not disallowed.

Rule 1: must be your own work & must be created on NightCafè Rule 2: if it's not your work you must have permission to use it

Those two rules can't exist together, they must be separate. You can't ban others works and then say you can. They must be separate. The must be created in nightmare is worded in a way that ties it to rule 1, rule 2 that's separate from rule one since they can't coexist doesn't mention having to be made on NightCafè, most likely because how else would you use one that's not yours, you get it from Google or wherever.

Asked what?